Rather than write a long article this week, I’m going in a different direction.
The news over the last year has highlighted the vast gap between the “rich” and the “poor”. I offer 2 statements for consideration and yield the floor to comments. Chew on them for a bit. Namaste.
The reason we have poverty is that we have no imagination. There are a great many people accumulating what they think is vast wealth, but it’s only money… they don’t know how to enjoy it, because they have no imagination.
~Alan WattsIn a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of.
~Confucius
I have pondered it and here is my input.
RE: The reason we have poverty is that we have no imagination. There are a great many people accumulating what they think is vast wealth, but it’s only money… they don’t know how to enjoy it, because they have no imagination.
~Alan Watts
Who’s Alan Watts that you should quote him? I contend that Alan is being disingenuous here since it takes imagination to accumulate wealth and it looks to me like the rich are enjoying themselves! Besides what moral standard does he use to make that shortsighted judgment call!
Here’s what Jesus said:
John 12:7-9 KJV – Then said Jesus, “Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always”
Consider the following:
Leviticus 19:9-10 – “When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger. I am the Lord your God”
Proverbs 14:31 – “He who oppresses the poor reproaches his Maker, but he who honors Him has mercy on the needy”
Matthew 6:3-4 – “But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly”
Acts 4:34-35 – “Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need”
Consider as well the Jewish Core Value (Tzedakah, meaning both “justice” and “charity”) in Traditional Jewish Life:
The connection between justice with charitable giving is simple: giving to charity (referred to as “giving tzedakah”), promotes justice. As one pamphlet put it, “’Tzedakah’ is usually translated as ‘charity,’ but it comes from the word ‘tzedek’ meaning justice. Giving tzedakah is not as act of generosity or mercy. It is an act of fairness. It’s not a nice thing to do; it’s the right thing to do.” 1)
Thus, the poor will always be with us and if you tie this in with justice and charitable giving you may understand why the poor will always be with us.
RE: In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of.
~Confucius
Why Quote Confucius? From what I understand we don’t know for sure if he really existed! (Not like Jesus who has risen!)
I like Proverbs 29:2 better: “When the righteous rule, the people rejoice; when the wicked rule, the people groan.”
In addition, Proverbs 29:18 – “Where there is no vision the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.”
So the Question I would like answered is this: What moral standard does Alan, Confucius and other Intelligencia use to make such statements and live their lives? i.e. – where does it come from – for sure not from the unsubstantiated theory of evolution!
1) Jack Abramowitz, “Tzedakah,” available at http://j4j.co/ncsybooklet
As a side note, the comments above expands upon my comments in the “considerreconsider” discussion: https://considerreconsider.com/2011/are-economists-the-solution-or-the-problem/
Where I said – “Since I have a limited amount of words I can use I will keep this short and sweet.
1st Jesus (Our Lord and Savior, Creator and Sustainer of the Universe) said that the poor will always be with us (thus there will always be stratification).”
“Why Quote Confucius? From what I understand we don’t know for sure if he really existed! (Not like Jesus who has risen!)”
Are you sure? There is no reliable evidence on that matter either. Please don’t quote Tacitus, his works were proven compromised.
I quote Mr. Watts because he, in my view, makes good points. He also did exist, we have video evidence. 😉
Your Jesus, or at least the words attributed to him that were written by people over a century after his alleged ‘resurrection’ often are good words, which is also why I quoted Confucius. Neither may be real, but the words are often powerful.
Namaste.
I appreciate Mr. Ed in bringing a Christian perspective to the table, and I myself have quoted such scriptures. And Proverbs 29:2 is perhaps in line with Watts.
However, it’s best I do not comment on his “knowledge” of other world-views (or dare offer differing scriptural interprtations), if for no other reason than it is outside the scope of this article, and strays into conflicts over personal belief rather than rational discourse.
Bob and Ken,
Basically, what I am trying to say is that a discussion on poverty should be on a supernatural level and not just on a rational (materialistic level). My statements were purposely made to strike at the biased humanistic side of Confucius and Alan Watts. I feel Bob’s response is too short and deflecting away from my question concerning what moral standard do you use concerning making judgment calls like Alan Watts’ simplistic and misleading implication that rich people are somewhat responsible for poverty (which is popular today!).
In addition, RE: “Please don’t quote Tacitus, his works were proven compromised”.
I did not quote Tacitus when I stated “He is risen”. I was making a statement of fact that I have uncovered through my many years of studying and investigating this wonderful life. (Besides, there are other non-biblical sources for the historical Jesus.) Using my training as a quality engineer and as a chemist I can demonstrate (via measurement science) that Jesus is God and that the Holy Bible is the Word of God and it is the only book or standard in existence that allows us to attribute any meaning to this world. Moreover, my knowledge of other religions and world views has led me to the following statement which is logically true:
All religions (this includes atheism, naturalism and rationalism) of this world are false and what may appear to be fundamentally the same are in fact superficially the same and fundamentally different since they are mutually exclusive! Roman Catholicism, Islam, Hinduism, Mormonism, Buddhism (which is really atheistic) and the New Age movement are cults and have their origin rooted in the human imagination or ego and have no basis of fact to back them up. That’s why the universalistic “COEXIST” slogan so popular today will not accomplish what its followers want to accomplish, were everyone gets along, or the relativistic notation that we can believe our own version of truth or have our own religious experience.
In conclusion, in a relativistic world such as ours I have identified an absolute truth that I can ground my life in and that absolute truth is Jesus is God and He is alive and well. Moreover His church is not a building nor a religious/ philosophical experience but a relationship with our sovereign Savior who died on the cross for our sins!
One last thing:
RE: “Your Jesus, or at least the words attributed to him that were written by people over a century after his alleged ‘resurrection’ often are good words, which is also why I quoted Confucius. Neither may be real, but the words are often powerful.”
I need to clarify or correct this statement. The New Testament was written by men (inspired by God) who were actually there with Jesus when he was on this earth (as the Son of man). That is – the New Testament is a historical document that is backed up by eyewitness reports (men that experienced Him). That is the proper scientific way of looking at the Holy Bible!
“He is Risen” is an opinion. Not a fact. No proof exists that has not been debunked as later-day rewriting and forgery.
Using measurement science….so how much does the Savior weigh, and should he hit the gym? Seriously.
Which translation of your Bible is the correct one? There are over 100 translations, they differ in what they say, and in fact even the Gospels disagree with each other. One of your ‘eyewitnesses’ in fact never met the man, just had a vision after riding in the hot sun for a few hours. That’s not proof of anything other than heat stroke.
You wish to believe in Jesus, that’s your business. But that makes it no more or less valid than the other 1,000+ beliefs out there.
RE:-“He is Risen” is an opinion. Not a fact. No proof exists that has not been debunked as later-day rewriting and forgery.
This is interesting you are using your opinion to refute my statement of fact? Please explain your statement– “No proof exists that has not been debunked as later-day rewriting and forgery.” How can something that does not exist be debunked? What proof are you talking about? Moreover, your statement is really an opinion and has been shown scientifically to be untrue!
Please provide a standard you use with your response!
Also, Craig L. Parshall’s article in IMG deals with the revisionist history and unsubstantiated claims that Jesus did not exist that are prevalent today:
http://www.israelmyglory-digital.com/israelmyglory/20120506/?pg=10&pm=2&u1=friend
In it he brings up a good point – “But, Christians are not, nor should they be. Crossan’s book focuses on the literary form of the parable, which our Savior indeed used as a teaching tool. But, Crossan uses it to explain everything the New Testament says about the life of Christ, reducing the Gospels and Epistles to mere religious fiction about an unknown, but intriguing, historical figure.
As a novelist, when I devise a plotline and fill it in with characters and dialogue, I know I am writing fiction, even if some elements were inspired by actual events. Any sane writer knows the difference. And so did the New Testament writers.
What Crossan describes as a collection of mere religious parables resulted in the authors being beheaded, burned alive, crucified upside down – clearly a price no writer is willing to pay for works of mere fiction.”
He also points out what is going on these days!
“The apostle Peter stressed he and the other disciples were “eyewitnesses” and boldly declared their accounts were not “cunningly devised fables” (2 Pet. 1:16). The apostle Paul urged early Christians to avoid following myths and fables (1 Tim. 1:4; 2 Tim. 4:4; Ti. 1:14).
It could not be clearer: These men, moved by the Holy Spirit and transformed by their encounters with Jesus Christ, were not creating some first century version of The Da Vinci Code. Their testimonies are corroborated both by their high regard for the standards of evidence and the risk to their own lives.
Sadly, Crossan is like many other smart scholars who insist on seeking natural explanations for the miraculous life of Christ. As a result, he used the obtuse, complex formulas of reason within his own discipline to, in effect, put reason to death.”
Tomorrow I will deal with the following statement: “Using measurement science….so how much does the Savior weigh, and should he hit the gym? Seriously.”
Staying on topic and not getting into the historical question:
Poverty is not a supernatural problem. It is a physical one.
It can and is addressed by secular and religious thinkers alike, but to debase what you perceive as a non-religious view as not authoritative enough is silly, IMO, in the same way someone praying for healing should not eschew medical treatment.
However, I agree with your (Ed’s) sentiments regarding today’s common, misguided belief in the rich causing the poor, and I do think scriptural mentions are very much worth adding to the discussion — but on their own merit and not our subjective weight of the source of the message.
Ed, I think Alan Watts and Confucious are being taken WAY out of context. They are not blaming anyone, but attempting to reframe the concept of wealth in society to better manage it such that poverty is not pervasive. It doesn’t vilify it, only the mismanagment of it.
“Ed”,
Roman & Jewish historians such as Tacitus and Josephus are often pointed to, their writings referred to as “proof” that Jesus existed. However deeper inspection of those writings has shown clear corruption introduced by the early church to ‘prove’ things. Earlier versions of the same writings have been shown to omit the ‘proof’ that was ‘discovered’ later by the Church.
In addition, Tacitus couldn’t have had ‘first hand knowledge’ having been born -after- the supposed Crucification.
http://shawnlandis.suite101.com/pliny-tacitus-josephus-and-jesus-a28707
http://www.truthbeknown.com/pliny.htm
You cite Peter saying they were eyewitnesses, yet the 4 recognized Gospels disagree on key points. Tell me, how did Judus die? Was he hung, stoned or disemboweled?
According to Matthew, Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great (Matthew 2:1). According to Luke, Jesus was born during the first census in Israel, while Quirinius was governor of Syria (Luke 2:2). This is impossible because Herod died in March of 4 BC and the census took place in 6 and 7 AD, about 10 years after Herod’s death.
Both Matthew and Luke say that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Matthew quotes Micah 5:2 to show that this was in fulfillment of prophecy. Actually, Matthew misquotes Micah (compare Micah 5:2 to Matthew 2:6). Although this misquote is rather insignificant, Matthew’s poor understanding of Hebrew will have great significance later in his gospel.
Luke has Mary and Joseph travelling from their home in Nazareth in Galilee to Bethlehem in Judea for the birth of Jesus (Luke 2:4). Matthew, in contradiction to Luke, says that it was only after the birth of Jesus that Mary and Joseph resided in Nazareth, and then only because they were afraid to return to Judea (Matthew 2:21-23).
In order to have Jesus born in Bethlehem, Luke says that everyone had to go to the city of their birth to register for the census. This is absurd, and would have caused a bureaucratic nightmare. The purpose of the Roman census was for taxation, and the Romans were interested in where the people lived and worked, not where they were born (which they could have found out by simply asking rather than causing thousands of people to travel).
Matthew says that Herod, in an attempt to kill the newborn Messiah, had all the male children two years old and under put to death in Bethlehem and its environs, and that this was in fulfillment of prophecy.
This is a pure invention on Matthew’s part. Herod was guilty of many monstrous crimes, including the murder of several members of his own family. However, ancient historians such as Josephus, who delighted in listing Herod’s crimes, do not mention what would have been Herod’s greatest crime by far. It simply didn’t happen.
WHY DID JOHN BAPTIZE JESUS?
John baptized for repentance (Matthew 3:11). Since Jesus was supposedly without sin, he had nothing to repent of. The fact that he was baptized by John has always been an embarrassment to the church. The gospels offer no explanation for Jesus’ baptism, apart from the meaningless explanation given in Matthew 3:14-15 “to fulfill all righteousness.” Other passages, which indicate that Jesus did not consider himself sinless, are also an embarrassment to the church (Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19).
Luke, who claims to be chronological (Luke 1:3), tries to give the impression that John did not baptize Jesus. Luke’s account of Jesus’ baptism occurs after the account of John’s imprisonment (Luke 3:20-21).
C. WHY DIDN’T JOHN THE BAPTIST BECOME A FOLLOWER OF JESUS?
If John knew that Jesus was the son of God, why didn’t he become a disciple of Jesus? And why didn’t all, or even most, of John’s disciples become Jesus’ disciples? Most of John’s disciples remained loyal to him, even after his death, and a sect of his followers persisted for centuries.
The gospel writers were forced to include Jesus’ baptism in their gospels so that they could play it down. They could not ignore it because John’s followers and other Jews who knew of Jesus’ baptism were using the fact of his baptism to challenge the idea that Jesus was the sinless son of God. The gospel writers went to great pains to invent events that showed John as being subordinate to Jesus.
I could go on (in fact did years ago) and debunk the entirety of mythos, right down to stolen Pagan trappings, but you wont listen.
But that’s ok. Your Jesus and my Harry Potter can co-exist. Both have books written about them, both have legions of followers, and in both cases people claim to have seen them. I’ll pray for you when I have butterbeer for communion. 😀
But I’ll tell you what. You pick up Jesus, bring him around for some coffee and danishes, and I’ll let him tell me in person. Until then, may the Flying Spaghetti Monster Bless you with his Noodley Appendages. 😀
Bob, you really are opening up a big can of worms unecessarily here I think (at least as much as Ed). And we are confusing the question of a historical Jesus of Nazareth with a ressurected incarnated Logos — as is Ed. The only point I would make is that unless we are all of the same opinion as to the authoritativeness of Judeo-Christian scripture (or more accurately the preferred exegetical conclusions of it), words must be evaluated on their own merit, be they from China, the Levant, or Buffalo, New York. To assert primacy of one message over another on the basis of believed Godhead is absurd outside a unanimous ecclesiastical enclave, and even then I would dare question our limited human understanding of it.
Ken,
Ed started it. LOL!
My offer to Jesus for coffee though still stands.
😉
Now, have we gotten the religious tangent out of the way and could we maybe discuss the actual original posting?
RE: “Using measurement science….so how much does the Savior weigh, and should he hit the gym? Seriously.”
By your statement it is obvious you do not know what measurement science is! Measurement Science or Metrology is the science of how to make a measure and the error analysis associated with that measurement. It is not the measurement itself but what can you say about the measurement in terms of accuracy and precision. It is used to determine how confident you can be in your result and eventually how confident you are in your conclusion. Since most measurements fall under a Normal or Gaussian curve you get into the realm of probability theory and the use of certain tools like control charts and the like. In addition, you need a standard to determine accuracy or the Bias associated with your measurement (This is the main reason I ask people to supply a standard with their opinions!) and the number of measurements you make is used to determine the precision. In addition, variances are additive – this law or equation is used to break down the error into the possible sources of error which leads to refinement of your measurements.
My biography from my book “Little Pea Me” applies at this point:
(Edited for public display)
I was born in M— and grew up on the east side. I went to R—– high school and obtained a BS in Chemistry at U–. I am married and have one daughter (who is a registered nurse) and one granddaughter (who this book is dedicated to). I am a quality nerd – a member of ASQ and an ASQ Certified Quality Engineer and an ASQ Certified Quality Auditor. I am a metrologist and somewhat of a statistician possessing the qualifications to discuss science matters. I believe science is used by man to discover truth and if used objectively can lead to universal and absolute truths limited only by mans’ imagination. It is when man imparts his ideologies into this fray does he become stuck in existentialism and relativism. Nowhere in the search for truth via the scientific method can you rule God (with all of his laws and properties) out of the equation of life and that God (Jesus) is the answer to all of our questions and investigations.
In my continuing study life and the Bible and with the evidence life has to offer, and with the aid of direct experience I can say that Jesus is alive and he has risen! It saddens me that naturalistic scientists and rationalists have a bias that keeps them experiencing The TRUTH and are missing out on a wonderful and free thinking experience.
In summary and to reply to the following statement:
“if for no other reason than it is outside the scope of this article, and strays into conflicts over personal belief rather than rational discourse.” I deal with facts and statistically sound data (not my personal beliefs) to make statements of fact in any rational discourse I get involved in! Moreover, if you do not supply a standard with your rational discourse then you are merely stating an opinion!
The next response will deal with the last response and provide some examples of the evidence available to everyone:
RE: Which translation of your Bible is the correct one? There are over 100 translations, they differ in what they say, and in fact even the Gospels disagree with each other. One of your ‘eyewitnesses’ in fact never met the man, just had a vision after riding in the hot sun for a few hours. That’s not proof of anything other than heat stroke.
You wish to believe in Jesus, that’s your business. But that makes it no more or less valid than the other 1,000+ beliefs out there.
So, not going to actually discuss the actual topic huh? Going to continue to tangent into your religious views.
Have fun. Knock yourself out. Out of respect for Ken I’m bowing out of this trollfest.